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Troy

Complaint: New Master Sergeant

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So I've always had this problem about new characters randomly popping out and taking a NCO spot, whether is being a person dying or someone just to fill in a spot. Jimbow, which I think, not 100% sure, that he just made a Master Sergeant this day (8/23/19). Which is a SNCO, my complaint is that is absurd to do so when we have a Staff Sergeant that's promotable to that position, no reason to randomly add an unneeded SNCO who literally doesn't help with morale to the unit itself. Shocker, the unit doesn't have the best morale and people don't have to be... nicest way to put it is a "jerk" to increase morale and increase discipline. Now all we have a Master Sergeant running about, yelling 24/7, which I see just stops promotions really for any NCO or SNCO moving upwards at all. I honestly believe that SNCO and NCO are to be promoted from those who show leadership and skill, not someone losing someone or feels the need to fill in a spot because no one is there at the current time. By the way, the new character is Master Sergeant Xavier Jefferson. I genuinely think that it only should happen for an events, working around promotions.

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Firstly it is me. Secondly for what ever reason everyone assumes this is a permanent character. Which I can tell you it is not. The character was created due to certain beliefs that the current NCO core is not properly doing their job of enforcing rules, regulation and leading. Now this isn't calling every single NCO shitty or should anyone take it that way. Furthermore the majority of my NCO characters, hell even characters in general expect like one are place holders. Usually until a player or what have you is deemed fit for the position. So no, this character is not halting any ones progression, that I can assure you. Lastly admins are usually given NCO's or Officer's 'randomly' because they're trusted players, they either have had a position of equal power or something equivalent. So they have experience with said position, and once again most of the time they are temporary until the position is properly filled. 

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By the way, I'd like this to be a discussion because I know others that agree with me on this topic. I seriously think it needs to be discussed between admins and players.

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I think you're taking the wrong approach there Jim. I can see that there is a present issue with the NCOs that does need addressing but I don't think it's the lack of not doing their job but generally being far too strict on it. There's a trend flowing around now where people tend to get NCOs and think that you must punish every wrong doing and do NJPs, beat someone or make them run until they can't physically do it any more. I personally think that Oakwood would make a great Msgt and that making one who is even stricter than our strictest really just puts not just IC morale down by creating this friction but it also makes an OOC mark. I'm no officer and I'm relatively new to the community but I personally believe in the fact that promotions could go through IC means not through "Trusted players" Letting promotions and ranks be earned through IC merit would make a much better system than someone asking on an OOC level and then the XAs giving it the clear because they're friendly with them out of the game.

 

All in all. I don't think bringing in new stricter NCOs will solve the issue at all. I think teaching the current NCO roster to be more human when it comes to punishments may promote a more friendly and RPable environment. Promote the 20 billion Lances and maybe flush the system with a new load of them. 

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19 minutes ago, Celinnia said:

I think you're taking the wrong approach there Jim. I can see that there is a present issue with the NCOs that does need addressing but I don't think it's the lack of not doing their job but generally being far too strict on it. There's a trend flowing around now where people tend to get NCOs and think that you must punish every wrong doing and do NJPs, beat someone or make them run until they can't physically do it any more. I personally think that Oakwood would make a great Msgt and that making one who is even stricter than our strictest really just puts not just IC morale down by creating this friction but it also makes an OOC mark. I'm no officer and I'm relatively new to the community but I personally believe in the fact that promotions could go through IC means not through "Trusted players" Letting promotions and ranks be earned through IC merit would make a much better system than someone asking on an OOC level and then the XAs giving it the clear because they're friendly with them out of the game.

 

All in all. I don't think bringing in new stricter NCOs will solve the issue at all. I think teaching the current NCO roster to be more human when it comes to punishments may promote a more friendly and RPable environment. Promote the 20 billion Lances and maybe flush the system with a new load of them. 

It's also a trend that majority of the enlisted do not respect anyone, NCO's and CO's included in this. For some reason they think they can do and say what ever they please. Also majority of the playerbase somehow forgets they went through bootcamp where this would be explained and stomped out. Also there is a couple of reasons that Oakwood hasn't been made Master Sergeant, and I will not disclose them. Some players do work their way up the ranks, and become per say a 'trusted player'. In most cases they're mad an admin due to the fact we know they aren't a complete troll or minge. I'm not sure if you ever noticed there hardly is any high ranking players, simply due to the fact they reached that rank and are usually offered admin. One because like I mentioned before they're trusted, two we know them. I can only speak from my own personal experience, I have never given anyone a rank just because they asked OOCly.

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Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring on this since I'm a fan of open discussions. Background to this post being that I've been around for a couple months now, worked up the ranks with Floofy and the boys, been an NCO and all that. 

From an outside perspective of an inactive player with little experience into the field of being an NCO or any form of leadership position, it's quite easy to sit there and say that this new character is a problem. 

2 hours ago, Troy said:

no reason to randomly add an unneeded SNCO who literally doesn't help with morale to the unit itself

Morale is a joke, especially in this specific sense. Morale on the ship is just an excuse to stick your OOC burnout incharacter. That's just my opinion though. I also don't think you can objectively state this as the character has literally been around for less than a day.

 

2 hours ago, Troy said:

people don't have to be... nicest way to put it is a "jerk" to increase morale and increase discipline

This is objectively false. The ship lacks discipline to any fucking extend, if you can't see that; then you are blind, ignorant, or apart of the problem. There is a very distinct lack of respect towards anyone who is trying to take up the mantle of a leader. Look at the interactions with dropleads during drops, like Cho trying to fistfight one during a drop or the fact an existing character had to be A11'd. People are treating this like a high school, which has been a complaint from everywhere in the community. The backlash for relationships being banned was a prime example of people's true intent here. This is a Military Roleplay at the heart of it, not a haha sexy fun time where you get to live out your missed highschool opportunities.

 

2 hours ago, Troy said:

Now all we have a Master Sergeant running about, yelling 24/7

Literally less than a day

 

2 hours ago, Troy said:

just stops promotions really for any NCO or SNCO moving upwards at all.

If you think this, it really shows you don't have the slightest clue about the NCO roster or really anything that goes on in the leadership aspect. Characters that are brought in to complete a task, or assist in some for of ship duties do not, in anyway, affect the average daily player. Jimbow has gone through several sergeant characters, this is no exception.

 

To sum up my opinion on that post, it really just seems out of place. There is a lot being said with not a lot of genuine evidence or really any form of insight. It's blow out of porpotion and offers little for a fix. It's super easy to say "just promote people who deserve it" but it's exponentially harder to actually find those people. Just because you've been around a long time doesn't inherently qualify you for a promotion. The point of ranks on this server, is to be filled by someone who can do the job when they need it. There is a reason the Staff Sergeant spot wasn't filled for a month or two after Argon quit. There is no need for ranks above a certain point when people are able to follow the rules like they are meant to. The only reason these newer and higher ranks are being added is simply because people need to see a higher rank setting an example since the current group isn't doing that. Which leads me into my next topic. 

 

1 hour ago, Celinnia said:

but generally being far too strict on it. There's a trend flowing around now where people tend to get NCOs and think that you must punish every wrong doing and do NJPs, beat someone or make them run until they can't physically do it any more

This is a skewed perspective. Both what you are referencing and what you yourself think. This is the cancerous mentality the NCOs are trying to force out of people by doing the NJPS. You are being punished because you are not following what you are supposed to be doing, and that same mentality seeps into the rest of the people you hang around with. This happens in an OOC aspect as well, as seen by this entire fucking discussion. Punishments happen for a reason, the more lax you become the less of a real trooper you become and thus problems on drops happen. It's a cycle, which is stemming from the fact people are forgetting this is a Military roleplay. You are not meant to be buddy buddy with the guy three ranks above you, you are not meant to know what he calls his dog at home, and you are sure as fuck not meant to be on a first name basis with the guy who could demote you back down to Retard. Discipline exists for a reason, tactfulness exists for a reason, and Non Judaical punishments exist to teach the player something in character and out of character.

 

1 hour ago, Celinnia said:

I personally think that Oakwood would make a great Msgt and that making one who is even stricter than our strictest really just puts not just IC morale down by creating this friction but it also makes an OOC mark

Of course it looks like Oakwood would make a great Master Sergeant, the only Staff Sergeant will always look like the best choice for the next rank. But that doesn't mean he is ready for it, nor does it mean he is the best candidate based on his character. Jimbow even said it earlier, he is being looked at for it but there are things that have to change before he gets it. Morale is a joke part 2, and is even confirmed by the way you bring up OOC right after it. 

 

1 hour ago, Celinnia said:

I think teaching the current NCO roster to be more human

This is some Restorative Justice shit, dawg. No, that literally would not work in any sense. The punishments are already fair as could be, this is the Mobile Infantry not Summer Camp. You talk shit, you get hit, literally and figuratively. This is embodied in the NJPs, they are non judicial for a reason. It's a minor crime that needs to be fixed, a quirk that needs to be taken out of a character. Once people realize the NCOs aren't just beating you for fun, shit will be a lot smoother. My character was NJP'd a bunch, to which he learned to not be fucking retarded, resulting in less beatings and less problems. 

 

All in all, this is a Military roleplay server and if you can't handle the fact that you are going to be yelled at, why are you even here?

its_because_of_u.jpg

Edited by Scoutis
Forgot my Viper pic
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15 minutes ago, Scoutis said:

Thought I'd throw my hat into the ring on this since I'm a fan of open discussions. Background to this post being that I've been around for a couple months now, worked up the ranks with Floofy and the boys, been an NCO and all that. 

From an outside perspective of an inactive player with little experience into the field of being an NCO or any form of leadership position, it's quite easy to sit there and say that this new character is a problem. 

Morale is a joke, especially in this specific sense. Morale on the ship is just an excuse to stick your OOC burnout incharacter. That's just my opinion though. I also don't think you can objectively state this as the character has literally been around for less than a day.

Nice to assume that you think I am an inactive player but where I literally get on after work that is 24 hour shifts and play a good portion of my two days off when I'm not on. Even better for you to assume I have "little" experience as an NCO or leadership position, yet I had a Sergeant for a handful of months and Corporal even longer. Two Master Specialist in Engineering. Now I don't know if that was directed towards me specifically, but it seems like so

Morale isn't a joke honestly, in my opinion, due to fact that morale in real life can affect combat and how people do, can easily translate into ingame. Not saying that some people don't use it for an OOC burnout, but I can because less than a day they been here and they are already tossing bunks and yelling their heads off? Who are they, where they came from? 

15 minutes ago, Scoutis said:

This is objectively false. The ship lacks discipline to any fucking extend, if you can't see that; then you are blind, ignorant, or apart of the problem. There is a very distinct lack of respect towards anyone who is trying to take up the mantle of a leader. Look at the interactions with dropleads during drops, like Cho trying to fistfight one during a drop or the fact an existing character had to be A11'd. People are treating this like a high school, which has been a complaint from everywhere in the community. The backlash for relationships being banned was a prime example of people's true intent here. This is a Military Roleplay at the heart of it, not a haha sexy fun time where you get to live out your missed highschool opportunities.

 

No not really. I've seen some good NCOs that can lead and do their job properly without being a dick the moment they are around someone. I will not say displine isn't a problem because it is, but being an asshole 24/7 about it won't fix it either, it'll just make people resent a person's command, I can already seeing it happening. People talking behind backs and shit. Yeah it is a Military RP, where we go on RnRs, people die, people put into stressful situations. People in real life, just like in the game handle sitautions VERY differently. We aren't all the same.

 

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Just now, Troy said:

@Seamus Unless you got something constructive to say and add to this, please don't post.

Just doing a tl;dr for everyone, and I put my input in with some advice ❤️

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2 minutes ago, Troy said:

Now I don't know if that was directed towards me specifically, but it seems like so

It was a massive generalization, not meant towards anyone in particular, my wording was bit too on the nose you'll have to forgive me.

6 minutes ago, Troy said:

they are already tossing bunks and yelling their heads off? Who are they, where they came from? 

It really just sounds like you are using morale to attempt to justify someone throwing down the hammer. Did one of your characters get targeted or something?

7 minutes ago, Troy said:

I've seen some good NCOs that can lead and do their job properly without being a dick the moment they are around someone.

Same, but that doesn't mean NCOs like this can't exist or aren't benifical. You can't tell what a good NCO is until you've had a bad one, not to say that this character is bad. Regardless, my favorite example of a bad yet brilliant NCO is Sergeant Major John Sixta which I wouldn't even be surprised if Jimbow was eminating him. He brought absurd standards towards the unit and forced them to follow it, sure he was hated, but he was hated so the rest of the unit could thrive. 

 

9 minutes ago, Troy said:

We aren't all the same.

This discussion wouldn't be happening if we were. My point still stands, it's beyond irrational to try and poke violent holes into the inner workings of the server because you see a single character that doesn't fit your idea of an ideal NCO.

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31 minutes ago, Seamus said:

 

>They are, earn them.

Hard to see that it's earned when you see a random Sergeant generated and Master Sergeant generated. Just what I see.

 

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Not really earned when you have the complete ability to make a character out of thin air @Seamus At that point it's not earned, it's just creating people with rank.

 

Edited by Troy

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If you can't be civil and keep it on track, and not waste each others time, you won't discuss it. Simple as that.

Now I'd rather let you all argue your points and come to a common ground than lock this thread.

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Just now, Shaxx said:

Why're you even posting in here?

Cause it's a discussion.

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2 minutes ago, Seamus said:

Cause it's a discussion.

Treat it like one then. The way you're going looks like it'll end up entirely dismissive.

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It's 2 am and I am eating pizza, so I thought I'd chime in to this discussion, as I like discussions.

I get the frustration around random characters and NCO's being generated, but people have to understand that there are literally no other alternatives for the Master Sergeant rank currently, or so the CO's feel like. Do I think admins should randomly make new characters to fill in the gap? No. I think it's a silly thing, even if the people receiving those ranks can handle it and/or deserve it. From what I understand, Jimbow and Sting got two NCO characters. I think what I said previously about the people being able to handle it applies here. I know Jimbow and Sting can handle their positions.

This leads me to the next thing I wanted to say. I personally think that the way these promotions and new characters were handled and introduced is pretty unfair for some people, like our corporals, or maybe even Floofy, depending on who you ask. In the future, I think introducing new characters to take up positions, especially positions that have major influence over the 90% of the playerbase, should first be discussed with the playerbase or at least the current NCO's. If a lot of people agree with it, then, sure, go ahead, make a character. I'm not sure why a master sergeant was needed, though I believe that there are good reasons to create one, otherwise this decision wouldn't have been made. Though, if this was discussed by the playerbase to at least some extent, I think we wouldn't be having this discussion/argument.

I'd also like to mention that from all the things I heard about Jimbow's new Master Sergeant, people aren't happy with it. From the things I've read, people feel like the Master Sergeant character is making the server a bit more toxic. I haven't personally had any experiences with this character yet, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Like Troy put it, and I quote, "Who are they, where (did) they came from?".

As I've said, I think asspulling important NCO's, or NCO's in general, shouldn't be a thing, in my opinion. I've personally never had good experiences with such a character yet, and if I'm honest, during the (re)launch and the first campaign of UCFRP, some characters which have now been PK'ed IC'ly were given NCO positions that they weren't qualified for, in my opinion, and it felt like they were given their positions just because they are OOC'ly influential players, whom have the power to create characters on the fly and not give a fuck about what other people think. Because of this, I understand the frustration some people might have with two new NCO's suddenly being a thing. Hell, I only found out we have two new NCO's by reading the roster while I was bored. At the very least, I think, the arrival of new characters with high power should be announced on the discord or something, no?

Anyway, that's what I think. Maybe my thoughts can be used to improve the server, I don't know, I hope it does.
 

edit: also apologies if I repeat myself or w/e, this took way longer to write than I thought it would and I now need to go sleep soon-ish

 

Edited by Teoras

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Just be glad you were able to get above PFC.  Count your blessings.
 

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I'll state this very genuinely and from the bottom of my heart,

None of these appointments are permanent or meant to disrespect anyone. The execution was poor. And it makes me oddly happy to see people improve their abilities in leadership, for example, pasta I demoted 5 times for poor leadership and he made it to Lt. There's numerous other people that took the fact they could not lead with grace and learned from their mistakes.

 

The issue is that at the moment hardly any NCOs know what their doing or have confidence in their abilities, that's an either/or situation as hardly does not mean all of them by any means. Now this is an issue of the upper echelons also not doing their jobs and actually teaching the junior NCOs their jobs and enhancing their abilities. From a Cpl failing to take command of a drop and having a lance lead it to another Cpl not knowing what a geonav is, there is an issue somewhere. The fact that no one with experience is willing to take the upper ranks and others aren't experienced enough is an issue and causes us to create temporary characters to alleviate that. 

 

Admittedly it has not been done properly and things will be fixed to address that and hopefully put things on track.

 

I will also address the fact that a lot of you need to rewatch what Starship Troopers is and reread the book. It is not a daycare, it is a rough and tough army where you don't get away with things. People need to understand that maybe they're being punished is because they're fucking up.

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You realize when someone worthy of the slot comes up, Jim is probably going to self PK or retire the char and give it to them, right? The idea is to unfuck the server's awful NCO cabinet. If doing that means one of you can't play as Top, then so be it. 99% of the server will never be considered for the position anyways, so it's not like you're losing out.

Edited by brad
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So, I'm an idiot, and I think we can all agree on that. So it's probably stupid of me to throw my own thoughts into this, but there probably does have to be a point where player happiness is taken into account. I'm sure you can be an NCO and be a hard-ass but not come off-the-bat as someone who's going to freak. Granted yes, its only been a day-But at least from my perspective, he started right off by targetting my own character specifically for stuff I have already been punished for. I think that's a bit silly, but i'm also me and in my position i'm bias'd.

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3 hours ago, brad said:

You realize when someone worthy of the slot comes up, Jim is probably going to self PK or retire the char and give it to them, right? The idea is to unfuck the server's awful NCO cabinet. If doing that means one of you can't play as Top, then so be it. 99% of the server will never be considered for the position anyways, so it's not like you're losing out.

I think the issue is more that A: It's a Master Sergeant which is an actual, achievable goal for people who genuinely want to progress down that route, it's not some advisory or snowflake rank, it's meant to be a rank that's been earned through IC character history so seeing that filled by an out of nowhere temporary fill gives people a bad taste in their mouths', and B: It doesn't have to be a Master Sergeant. You can have advisory disciplinary characters in ranks other than the player-achievable roster SNCO ranks. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Asper could call in to have a drill instructor sent here with the special assignment to unfuck the mess that is us. That would make more sense to me if respect and discipline was such an issue, rather than a fill-in Top. And it would openly communicate to everyone what their purpose was; A drill sergeant isn't something you find permanently assigned to a warship like ours, so everyone knows he's only here for one thing and will leave when that's been achieved.

A fill-in Master Sergeant, while we know is probably a temporary rank, players wont necessarily. Many players haven't been around for long enough or been in the loop enough over the months to know offhand that a character that pops out of nowhere will eventually pop into nowhere again. It doesn't help that it wasn't explained at any point to the players that this was happening (neither through IC nor OOC means afaik), so they were left with only their own guesses as to what was going on.

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Hi. As one of the new NCOs, I think I'll throw in my two cents.

There is very much an issue with the current NCO roster and I don't think anyone is disputing that. The newer NCOs are missing large gaps of the weird niche or homebrew lore of this server and of this universe in general. Corporals do not know what the zany and wacky are. Geonavs, Skinnies, Progenitors, The Morita X. As an event runner, I have had more than one NCO PM me and ask how to use MOBCOMM, and what their callsign is.

I'm not naming names, here. This isn't a big callout post to the newer NCOs. The server is full of obscure lore that can be difficult to find, and I don't expect every single new player to autistically sieve through every single piece of data, lore and other bit. But - if they aren't doing that, more trainings are required. And this loops onto the next part of why I requested a Sergeant character. Trainings, or more accurately, a lack of them. 

NCOs are not running enough trainings. Let's just be flat with it. The last two LRR trainings were ran by Shaxx and @Scoutis's old Sergeant. Scoutis' sergeant died before these new NCOs even joined.

Is it unfair that I got a new NCO character like that? Yeah. Let's just be flat, it's pretty bullshit, especially for anyone aspiring to be an NCO. But an unhealthy NCO roster leads to people rapidly shooting up the ranks when they really shouldn't, or people getting stuck at a rank for a very, very long time, when they need a promotion. The largest intended purpose of my Sergeant is to assist people who want to climb the NCO ranks.

This hasn't been handled perfectly. There is very much talk to fix it right. But believe me, this wasn't done out of some bizarre, altruistic desire to be an NCO. I actually prefer being enlisted to being an NCO.

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Just now, el excellente said:

it baffles me how people have the audacity to complain about things they have no insight on.

If you find complaints ridiculous then don't bother to post. This is a discussion between the admin team and the playerbase. Something that can improve/give people more of an understanding on the current situation.

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I'm probably going to regret posting what I think (Since im perosnally not that experienced with asspull hardass characters and real life Military, and not experienced that well with how the Military works in the movie) , but;

From the way I see it, NCOs are treated like they are the ones that need to be yelling and correcting people, while this is generally true and possible, originally Drill Sergeants and possibly SNCO+/CO+ are more fit and IC-ly experienced to do that (In the real military, my dad who was in the Romanian military got constantly yelled at by COs, for a real example). NCOs are there for correct leadership in battle and a little bit of scolding (e.g. yelling at someone) , but not beat the shit out of someone for not responding correctly or whatever small problem they did [Yes, this is the Military and not Summer Camp/Kindergarten, but this also isnt fucking Prison where you are to be beaten sensless and forced to eat bread and drink water by others for little to no reason. - If big punishments like that have a reason, then sure, go for it, but not as NCOs.] Instead they just take note of it and handle it out post-drop by taking the information (in this case, IC-ly take the video from the camera things to prove that it actually happened - also known as OOC-ly; save console logs) now you might say this could be faked OOC-ly and yes, thats true, but not if a trustable staff member is notified to prove that the logs aren't fake. 

Now as I said, I dont know much about real life Military (or the Movie) so take what I say with a grain of salt - Where i'm trying to get at is; in my personal opinion to prevent asspulling characters from experienced admins to discipline people, either just make temporary Drill Sergeants or temporary SNCO+ such as SgtMaj Moss while NCOs can focus on doing what they are actually meant to do; lead people.

Marines could also be reintroduced to the public, where you would only accept people if you really feel that they're up to the task of giving out punishments post drop and slapping people with a stun baton if they dont behave. This way both staff and players get to train their yell-at-and-punish-people roleplay skills and by proving worthy, they can move up ranks inside the branch. - I know this is Starship Troopers roleplay and not World War 3 roleplay, but in WW3RP only temporary DSgts, SNCO+ and possibly but rarely MPs were the only ones who punished people with demotions and shit, and guess what, they managed to execute it correctly and nobody was upset about it, except a few people who think they know better. (Also on another note of ww3rp, nobody asspulled characters for this reason unless it was a CO+ for an operation) Sure it might be unfair, but IC is IC and if you fuck up and Marines do something about it and/or find out about it thanks to Squad Leads and etc, its only your fault and you are responsible. 

Now I personally have no issue with the asspulling characters, I just suggested a way to fix this issue, which again, might be correct or might be wrong. Its just my two cents on the thing.

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